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	<title>Comments on: It&#8217;s Not Pronounced &#8220;I-ern-ic&#8221;</title>
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	<description>Feel Them Run Down All Over Your Face</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 27 Mar 2008 19:48:14 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: demedici</title>
		<link>http://commitmentdevice.wordpress.com/2008/03/27/its-not-pronounced-i-ern-ic/#comment-17</link>
		<dc:creator>demedici</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Mar 2008 19:48:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://commitmentdevice.wordpress.com/?p=25#comment-17</guid>
		<description>Yeah, a fine line to be sure...the candidates themselves are not flawed in the same way....just the way people think about the candidates. I&#039;m pretty sure that&#039;s not better, btw. Also, &quot;culture wars&quot; are the single best wars...other than &quot;race wars&quot; of course. Unforunately, I hear we are moving past the latter, so I will have to be happy with culture wars.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, a fine line to be sure&#8230;the candidates themselves are not flawed in the same way&#8230;.just the way people think about the candidates. I&#8217;m pretty sure that&#8217;s not better, btw. Also, &#8220;culture wars&#8221; are the single best wars&#8230;other than &#8220;race wars&#8221; of course. Unforunately, I hear we are moving past the latter, so I will have to be happy with culture wars.</p>
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		<title>By: andrew</title>
		<link>http://commitmentdevice.wordpress.com/2008/03/27/its-not-pronounced-i-ern-ic/#comment-16</link>
		<dc:creator>andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Mar 2008 19:46:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://commitmentdevice.wordpress.com/?p=25#comment-16</guid>
		<description>Sorry, left this out, but I meant to include the first Clinton&#039;s crappity crap crap record on gay rights (DOMA and &quot;Don&#039;t ask&quot;) in that last bit about so-called culture war issues.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, left this out, but I meant to include the first Clinton&#8217;s crappity crap crap record on gay rights (DOMA and &#8220;Don&#8217;t ask&#8221;) in that last bit about so-called culture war issues.</p>
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		<title>By: andrew</title>
		<link>http://commitmentdevice.wordpress.com/2008/03/27/its-not-pronounced-i-ern-ic/#comment-15</link>
		<dc:creator>andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Mar 2008 19:42:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://commitmentdevice.wordpress.com/?p=25#comment-15</guid>
		<description>Hmm, in reading your comment&#039;s conclusion, I realize I took entirely the wrong message from the original post. Yes, you were saying most people have dumb reasons for liking the candidates (with which I obviously agree, since all people are idiots), not that the likely nominees are inherently flawed in the same way Bush is. My bad.
But I do think the Hillary thing is worth elaborating upon. Iraq is obviously a big part of it- she blew the biggest decision this country has made in at least the last decade (and so did I, for the record, but I was just a punkass college student), so yes, that should be a big deal for someone running on her decades of experience. But there are other issues, as well. Hillary blew health care reform in the early 90&#039;s after being placed in charge of the White House&#039;s policy, and she blew it badly enough that 15 years later we&#039;re finally back to where we were when the whole thing exploded in her face. Call it judgment, call it legislative ability, call it bad PR management, call it whatever you&#039;d like: Hillary took responsibility for national health care reform and fumbled the ball atrociously. In more recent years, there&#039;s Clinton&#039;s running to the center in preparation for this election. I don&#039;t object to the idea of her getting some centrist cred, but I do object to the issues she chose to use. Co-sponsoring a flag burning amendment is pretty terrible coming from a Democratic icon sitting in a safe New York seat in the Senate, and it makes me question just how she&#039;d act as president on similar &quot;culture war&quot; issues. So, yeah, there&#039;s a few of the reasons I question her judgment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm, in reading your comment&#8217;s conclusion, I realize I took entirely the wrong message from the original post. Yes, you were saying most people have dumb reasons for liking the candidates (with which I obviously agree, since all people are idiots), not that the likely nominees are inherently flawed in the same way Bush is. My bad.<br />
But I do think the Hillary thing is worth elaborating upon. Iraq is obviously a big part of it- she blew the biggest decision this country has made in at least the last decade (and so did I, for the record, but I was just a punkass college student), so yes, that should be a big deal for someone running on her decades of experience. But there are other issues, as well. Hillary blew health care reform in the early 90&#8217;s after being placed in charge of the White House&#8217;s policy, and she blew it badly enough that 15 years later we&#8217;re finally back to where we were when the whole thing exploded in her face. Call it judgment, call it legislative ability, call it bad PR management, call it whatever you&#8217;d like: Hillary took responsibility for national health care reform and fumbled the ball atrociously. In more recent years, there&#8217;s Clinton&#8217;s running to the center in preparation for this election. I don&#8217;t object to the idea of her getting some centrist cred, but I do object to the issues she chose to use. Co-sponsoring a flag burning amendment is pretty terrible coming from a Democratic icon sitting in a safe New York seat in the Senate, and it makes me question just how she&#8217;d act as president on similar &#8220;culture war&#8221; issues. So, yeah, there&#8217;s a few of the reasons I question her judgment.</p>
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		<title>By: demedici</title>
		<link>http://commitmentdevice.wordpress.com/2008/03/27/its-not-pronounced-i-ern-ic/#comment-14</link>
		<dc:creator>demedici</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Mar 2008 19:14:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://commitmentdevice.wordpress.com/?p=25#comment-14</guid>
		<description>That didn&#039;t take long, though the quickness seems to have weakened the response. Much like the sex I&#039;ll be having with your mother tonight. First, let me agree that as a fairly well-off white dude, I will be fine no matter who wins. Second, I know a little more than you think I know, since I shadow-follow politics so I have something other than sports to be angry and depressed about. Also so that I can respond easily to these &quot;corrections.&quot; However, the overall point that I &quot;don&#039;t really care&quot; is probably pretty accurate, mostly because the things I&#039;ve ever &quot;really cared&quot; about can be counted on approximately one Alfonseca hand. However, I know that you actually &quot;care&quot; about things you &quot;care about,&quot; which seems like a nice character trait, so I will reward you with more of my words.

1.) Capitalize or Italicize &quot;real,&quot; and that&#039;s about it. You could also read in context by how I described Bush as lacking national experience and realize where I was going with it. 

2.) I knew that if you commented you would point this out, and I thought about changing it to read more like &quot;He&#039;s one-sidedly chummy with the press like a cool kid followed around by douchy nerds waiting to touch his letterman&#039;s jacket,&quot; but then decidedly it&#039;s hard to capture subtle (though largely meaningless) distinctions when you are writing a 5 line long description of one person. Point is, he&#039;s skated on criticism because he is well-liked or revered to the point of sickness by the press. No matter whether he courts it or not.

3.) I think it&#039;d be more effective to argue how important experience actually IS rather than arguing about who has more of it. 
I don&#039;t think HRC was dusting the mantles during those 8 years in the White House...if anything, her constant self-interjection into politics as a mere First Lady is half the reason she&#039;s detested so much on the right (WOMEN?!?!? IN POLITICS?!?!?). That time matters. 
And yes, she has four more years of experience in the only legislative body that matters to a President, which, given that they both announced for the Presidency (and have been largely useless legislatively since) in February 2007, is also TRIPLE the amount of time that Obama has. Four years DOES matter. So does her relatively strong record (especially for a junior Senator..maybe suggesting something about how her prior experience matters???) in bipartisan agreements. If at the end of the day, her lack of judgment in issues of national importance is just code for &quot;she voted for Iraq,&quot; then to me that&#039;s no better than reverse 9/11ing on par with Giuliani. If you think her record absent Iraq is substantially different than Obama&#039;s was or would have been, I&#039;d like to see it/know why.
Also, contacts matter. The phrase &quot;ultimately they’ll be roughly the same&quot; is question begging to say the least. Yes, if he wins the White House, his contacts will be roughly the same a few years in as HRCs are now. Great...that uh, doesn&#039;t mean anything. 

As for the last paragraph, it might all be true. However, it doesn&#039;t have anything to do with the post. You may very well have all those reasons to support Obama. Good for you, and I am not faulting you for believing he&#039;d be a good president for those reasons. But if you could look me in the face and tell me you think that even 30% of his current supporters could explain ANY of those things (save the general electability) to you and liked him for any reason other than his pretty words and personal appeal, I would laugh in your face...which would be convenient, since it&#039;d be right there. The point isn&#039;t that these guys are bad candidates, although I happen to think they both are (I would also prefer to have a robot as president, but so it goes). The point is that people DON&#039;T CARE that they are/are not bad candidates to run a country. They care whether they are nice, funny, or not a woman.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That didn&#8217;t take long, though the quickness seems to have weakened the response. Much like the sex I&#8217;ll be having with your mother tonight. First, let me agree that as a fairly well-off white dude, I will be fine no matter who wins. Second, I know a little more than you think I know, since I shadow-follow politics so I have something other than sports to be angry and depressed about. Also so that I can respond easily to these &#8220;corrections.&#8221; However, the overall point that I &#8220;don&#8217;t really care&#8221; is probably pretty accurate, mostly because the things I&#8217;ve ever &#8220;really cared&#8221; about can be counted on approximately one Alfonseca hand. However, I know that you actually &#8220;care&#8221; about things you &#8220;care about,&#8221; which seems like a nice character trait, so I will reward you with more of my words.</p>
<p>1.) Capitalize or Italicize &#8220;real,&#8221; and that&#8217;s about it. You could also read in context by how I described Bush as lacking national experience and realize where I was going with it. </p>
<p>2.) I knew that if you commented you would point this out, and I thought about changing it to read more like &#8220;He&#8217;s one-sidedly chummy with the press like a cool kid followed around by douchy nerds waiting to touch his letterman&#8217;s jacket,&#8221; but then decidedly it&#8217;s hard to capture subtle (though largely meaningless) distinctions when you are writing a 5 line long description of one person. Point is, he&#8217;s skated on criticism because he is well-liked or revered to the point of sickness by the press. No matter whether he courts it or not.</p>
<p>3.) I think it&#8217;d be more effective to argue how important experience actually IS rather than arguing about who has more of it.<br />
I don&#8217;t think HRC was dusting the mantles during those 8 years in the White House&#8230;if anything, her constant self-interjection into politics as a mere First Lady is half the reason she&#8217;s detested so much on the right (WOMEN?!?!? IN POLITICS?!?!?). That time matters.<br />
And yes, she has four more years of experience in the only legislative body that matters to a President, which, given that they both announced for the Presidency (and have been largely useless legislatively since) in February 2007, is also TRIPLE the amount of time that Obama has. Four years DOES matter. So does her relatively strong record (especially for a junior Senator..maybe suggesting something about how her prior experience matters???) in bipartisan agreements. If at the end of the day, her lack of judgment in issues of national importance is just code for &#8220;she voted for Iraq,&#8221; then to me that&#8217;s no better than reverse 9/11ing on par with Giuliani. If you think her record absent Iraq is substantially different than Obama&#8217;s was or would have been, I&#8217;d like to see it/know why.<br />
Also, contacts matter. The phrase &#8220;ultimately they’ll be roughly the same&#8221; is question begging to say the least. Yes, if he wins the White House, his contacts will be roughly the same a few years in as HRCs are now. Great&#8230;that uh, doesn&#8217;t mean anything. </p>
<p>As for the last paragraph, it might all be true. However, it doesn&#8217;t have anything to do with the post. You may very well have all those reasons to support Obama. Good for you, and I am not faulting you for believing he&#8217;d be a good president for those reasons. But if you could look me in the face and tell me you think that even 30% of his current supporters could explain ANY of those things (save the general electability) to you and liked him for any reason other than his pretty words and personal appeal, I would laugh in your face&#8230;which would be convenient, since it&#8217;d be right there. The point isn&#8217;t that these guys are bad candidates, although I happen to think they both are (I would also prefer to have a robot as president, but so it goes). The point is that people DON&#8217;T CARE that they are/are not bad candidates to run a country. They care whether they are nice, funny, or not a woman.</p>
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		<title>By: andrew</title>
		<link>http://commitmentdevice.wordpress.com/2008/03/27/its-not-pronounced-i-ern-ic/#comment-13</link>
		<dc:creator>andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Mar 2008 18:45:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>It&#039;s probably not even worth doing this (since you&#039;re the epitome of the rich white guy who is educated enough to sound like he knows what&#039;s going on politically and vaguely does care what&#039;s going on politically but ultimately doesn&#039;t REALLY know or care since he&#039;s a) not all that interested and b) rich and white and therefore will be just fine regardless of who wins or loses), but I&#039;ll go ahead and correct some of the more glaring inaccuracies because I have little better to do.

1) &quot;[Obama has] little to no real political experience.&quot;
He actually has fairly extensive [i]political[/i] experience, albeit on a small/local level (which is a positive to some people who care strongly about grassroots politics*). He also has a pretty decent amount of legislative experience at the same level. What he lacks is executive experience, foreign policy experience, and experience on the national level.
That doesn&#039;t invalidate your intended criticism, but it does make your expressed criticism rather inaccurate.
2) Obama is labeled chummy with the press.
Actually, one of the weirdest aspects of this campaign to people who obsess over these things** is that Obama is even more distant from the press than HRC when it comes to interacting with them directly, but they love him anyway. He holds almost no standard press conferences, let alone the frequent buddy-buddy chats that McCain engages in daily. But again, the press seems to love him anyway.
Again, this doesn&#039;t really attack your central criticism. I just find your central criticism a) irrelevant (guys like FDR were perfectly chummy with the press and b) factually a bit off.
3) Obama has beaten back a &quot;leftover Clintonite with actual experience&quot;.
Leftover Clintonite, sure. I still don&#039;t understand why Clinton is the &quot;experienced&quot; candidate, though. No one seems able to explain this one; they just assert its truth and move on. She&#039;s never written a law and gotten it through the legislature (until her Senate term, which gives her exactly 4 more years of experience than Obama), she&#039;s never negotiated with foreign leaders, and she&#039;s never shown particularly good judgment on issues of national importance.
If you&#039;re talking about connections and eventual appointees to key positions, then hers might be slightly better than Obama&#039;s right now, but ultimately they&#039;ll be roughly the same.

Finally, I just object to the notion that Obama voters don&#039;t really have any good reasons for supporting him beyond pretty words. I also like the focus of his theoretical foreign policy should he win much better than HRC&#039;s. I like his approach to building the Democratic Party and a liberal governing coalition. I like the fact that independents seem to trust him a lot more than they trust Hillary, which will be a huge factor running against someone with the reputation of McCain. And yes, again, I love his pretty pretty words.

*Shouldn&#039;t be assumed to include me, since it doesn&#039;t.
**Does include me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s probably not even worth doing this (since you&#8217;re the epitome of the rich white guy who is educated enough to sound like he knows what&#8217;s going on politically and vaguely does care what&#8217;s going on politically but ultimately doesn&#8217;t REALLY know or care since he&#8217;s a) not all that interested and b) rich and white and therefore will be just fine regardless of who wins or loses), but I&#8217;ll go ahead and correct some of the more glaring inaccuracies because I have little better to do.</p>
<p>1) &#8220;[Obama has] little to no real political experience.&#8221;<br />
He actually has fairly extensive [i]political[/i] experience, albeit on a small/local level (which is a positive to some people who care strongly about grassroots politics*). He also has a pretty decent amount of legislative experience at the same level. What he lacks is executive experience, foreign policy experience, and experience on the national level.<br />
That doesn&#8217;t invalidate your intended criticism, but it does make your expressed criticism rather inaccurate.<br />
2) Obama is labeled chummy with the press.<br />
Actually, one of the weirdest aspects of this campaign to people who obsess over these things** is that Obama is even more distant from the press than HRC when it comes to interacting with them directly, but they love him anyway. He holds almost no standard press conferences, let alone the frequent buddy-buddy chats that McCain engages in daily. But again, the press seems to love him anyway.<br />
Again, this doesn&#8217;t really attack your central criticism. I just find your central criticism a) irrelevant (guys like FDR were perfectly chummy with the press and b) factually a bit off.<br />
3) Obama has beaten back a &#8220;leftover Clintonite with actual experience&#8221;.<br />
Leftover Clintonite, sure. I still don&#8217;t understand why Clinton is the &#8220;experienced&#8221; candidate, though. No one seems able to explain this one; they just assert its truth and move on. She&#8217;s never written a law and gotten it through the legislature (until her Senate term, which gives her exactly 4 more years of experience than Obama), she&#8217;s never negotiated with foreign leaders, and she&#8217;s never shown particularly good judgment on issues of national importance.<br />
If you&#8217;re talking about connections and eventual appointees to key positions, then hers might be slightly better than Obama&#8217;s right now, but ultimately they&#8217;ll be roughly the same.</p>
<p>Finally, I just object to the notion that Obama voters don&#8217;t really have any good reasons for supporting him beyond pretty words. I also like the focus of his theoretical foreign policy should he win much better than HRC&#8217;s. I like his approach to building the Democratic Party and a liberal governing coalition. I like the fact that independents seem to trust him a lot more than they trust Hillary, which will be a huge factor running against someone with the reputation of McCain. And yes, again, I love his pretty pretty words.</p>
<p>*Shouldn&#8217;t be assumed to include me, since it doesn&#8217;t.<br />
**Does include me.</p>
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